Curse

bungusmaximus · Mar 26, 2008, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

That is great...
...on paper.

If you lower the impact of shrines and make it on part with killing, that WILL turn into a kill fest.
The only thing that stops AB from being a complete one atm is that shrines are more important.
Killing is necessary from times to times to disrupt the ennemy capping routine, or to clear a path. It's just less mindless killing, and that is great.
Changing to something that promotes squirmishing, no

qft, teams only running and capping are doing it wrong. Sometimes you need to defend stuff whenever reasonably possible, else you will loose nonetheless. Turbos post redirected this thread to the dustbin :P.

Splitisoda · Mar 26, 2008, 10:41 AM // 10:41

/signed
The fact that there are shrines promote stupidity, most people know you should get shrines, but because of the fact they're so widespread and go in a circle, you always end up having 2 groups run into each other, and form a mob for the time until they die.

Personally, I was thinking AB would be 12vs12 war, I think its the only way you can get 24 people in one game, not sure about this though.

majestikk · Mar 26, 2008, 01:15 PM // 13:15

werd.
shrines should not have a direct correlation to your team's score

bas koopman · Mar 26, 2008, 02:22 PM // 14:22

first off, I like the fact that you need to form parties. you dont really need build synergy, so it doesnt cost much more time this way, but you CAN play with friends/guildies and have a synergy. becaue you are randomly put together with 2 other teams, you can't make an incredibly imba build that is unbeatable unless the other team has good build synergy.

About the capping issue, I don't agree at all. capping takes a little bit of skill, since you need to decide where to go, when to retreat and when to push further. see it as an incredibly simplified GvG. if you were to remove the guild lord, flagstand, bases and NPC's, you'd get HA. If you remove shrines from AB, you get a 12 man TA gankfest

moriz · Mar 26, 2008, 02:55 PM // 14:55

i think some of you are overestimating the importance of shrine capping and underestimating the importance of killing in AB.

let's look at this scenario:

both sides are concentrating on capping, and shrines are traded back and forth very quickly. however, one side happens to have a 20 point lead. in that instance, if both sides continue to cap at the same pace, the side that have the 20 point lead will win.

now let's look at another:

both sides are capping at more or less the same pace, and one side (let's say the luxons) have a 20 point lead. however, one or two individuals on the kurzick side decides to fight the other team. their efforts completely slows down one of the opposing capping teams, and even managed to score a few kills. suddenly, the score is tied and the match goes down to a 480 vs 480 matchup.

the luxon side continues to cap, while the kurzick side goes on a rampage and kills a bunch of players. while the luxons have more shrines, the kurzick scored enough kills to make it 501 vs 495, and kurzick wins.

------

"you win by capping only" is a stupid misconception, and is only valuable to get bad players to do something constructive. AB, like GvG, now have two resources in equal balance: killing and capping. you can't win by capping alone (unless the other side completely forget to cap), and you can't win by killing alone either. this balance is pretty fragile at the moment, so there's no point in upsetting it.

kranius · Mar 26, 2008, 03:07 PM // 15:07

True ^

People asking for massive rampage should go UT ~~
Maybe strategy isn't for them ? Then just don't play AB...

Lexar · Mar 26, 2008, 03:13 PM // 15:13

For me, the fun of AB is that people are somewhat spread out over the huge maps and there's different battles going on at the same time that all decide the outcome of the match, you're part of a bigger thing, you have influence but you also have to anticipate what the other teams do. That makes it feel much more like a battlefield than a big 12v12 ever would. A 12v12 would make it that much more tempting to form huge mobs and you would get stuck with annoying people that feel they have to tell you what to do (at least with 3 teams of 4 you can pick your teammates).

So I prefer it this way.

Alleji · Mar 26, 2008, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Disagree. On pretty much everything.

The shrine capping mechanic is fine and AB is not all "cap cap cap". Sometimes the best option is engaging people and defending a shrine, sometimes you would even benefit from fighting them in the middle of nowhere, i.e. if your side is in a winning position and you're occupying people by engaging them. There are countless other situations, but this isn't exactly a strategy thread. The shrine mechanic is fine.

12 party size would make party-wide skills busted as f***. Forming 4-man teams isn't exactly a problem, the ability to enter alone isn't necessary. Stop being lazy and spam tab/click the "+" icon in the party screen. Forms you a 4-man team in 5 to 15 seconds. I guess the 12-man window would make life easier for monks, but if anet really wants to do that, just give us the option to open party windows for other parties, like in WoW, instead of breaking Aegis and Heal Party.

If the system isn't fun for you, play RA. Or HA. Or GvG. Or PvE. Or just quit the game - that's what I did when it stopped being fun.

AB isn't broken (probably the only PvP mode that isn't), please don't fix it.

X Ice Man X · Mar 26, 2008, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

I believe the saying is, "Don't fix what aint broken." I also believe that is a saying that only close-minded individuals use. The reason why we change things is to improve on them. If you are correct in your way of thinking, we would all be watching black and white T.V. and listening to our 8 track tapes... need I say more.

Improvements made on black and white TV and 8 track tapes were made around core aspects of the original design.

AB is based on gaining more territory for your faction, be it Luxon or Kurzick. The concept of AB has been since its released based around capturing points. If we remove their direct link to the scoring that what exactly is their purpose in the game?

Indirect link to scoring how would that work? The randomly give you points? No that would be directly affecting the score... They randomly remove points from the other teams score if you have more? No that would be directly affecting the scoring.

Removing the direct link that the shrines have to the score would remove their purpose in the game. They are a core aspect of AB (not the only aspect), so if we were to 'improve' into a 'better' game it would be like improving black and white TV in colour TV with no picture, or removing the sound from all music players. The picture and sound being core features on both of them.

Capping Shrine is a core aspect, just because you personally don't like it. Does not mean is needs to be changed. If you wish to improve AB then maybe adding a feature to 12 v 12 properly with your alliance/guild vs another alliance/guild.

If you wish to play a game where you fight people to 60% DP and getting a moral boost every 2 minutes, go play GvG. If you want it to be a 12 v 12 then go moan at ANet to make GvG 12 v 12.

AB is fine the way it is, it is popular the way it is, it works the way it is.

Just because you don't like it does not mean it should change. You know it doesn't and I personally think that now you just want to create a flame fest.

Its clear that the majority people don't agree with you you, and want AB to stay the way it is. The minority of people who agree with you about changing shrines in fact disagree with you again because they want a.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas koopman

12 man TA gankfest

Which it would be, and you clearly state you do not want.

prinzess of life · Mar 26, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

/not sign

AB is good the way it is, there is already enough places in the game where you can make scrimages.

If you have a problem with caping shrines then don't play AB.

Ask A-net to make Arena 12 vs 12 if it's that what you want but don't mess with AB.

Brian the Gladiator · Mar 26, 2008, 07:54 PM // 19:54

There are seven things wrong with what you said in your last post Ice Man...

1. Statistics show that people tend to speak up more when in disagreement with someone rather than agreement. I would assume that people who currently like AB would post and view other posts in the Alliance Battle forum more often than those who don't like it.

2. 8 track tapes are nothing like their predecessor... records.

3. AB is based on gaining more territory for your side (Luxon or Kurzick). Throughout history, countries in real life have gained territory by conquering other countries through warfare, not by capping more shrines than them... Capping shrines has nothing to do with the description of AB on Guildwars.com

4. Either you didn't read my entire post or you just a moron because you still don't understand what I mean by direct and indirect link to scoring.

5. Capping shrines should be a core aspect of AB. It should not be the number one priority. Defeating your enemy through combat should be just as important.

6. I do play GvG primarily. I think that we all can agree it is the most successful form of pvp so why not use what works well there and apply it to other aspects of pvp.

7. AB is not popular amongst primary PvP players. The majority of people that like AB are those that play primarily PvE.

Patrick Smit · Mar 26, 2008, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Medieval Crusades were about occupying (holy) places, not about amount of heathens killed.

(i.e. it is good as it is)

horseradish · Mar 26, 2008, 08:34 PM // 20:34

The proposed changes certainly are interesting. Making shrine capping much like flag-running could promote more organized teams in AB, but it can easily get messy and overly complicated and broken.

I don't think the majority of ABers will enjoy it either. Most are either casual PvPers or n00bs, and balancing player kills and what shrines to cap takes strategy and practice.

Though I like the idea very much, I don't think it will translate very well.

Perhaps HM AB?

Splitisoda · Mar 26, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i think some of you are overestimating the importance of shrine capping and underestimating the importance of killing in AB.

let's look at this scenario:

both sides are concentrating on capping, and shrines are traded back and forth very quickly. however, one side happens to have a 20 point lead. in that instance, if both sides continue to cap at the same pace, the side that have the 20 point lead will win.

now let's look at another:

both sides are capping at more or less the same pace, and one side (let's say the luxons) have a 20 point lead. however, one or two individuals on the kurzick side decides to fight the other team. their efforts completely slows down one of the opposing capping teams, and even managed to score a few kills. suddenly, the score is tied and the match goes down to a 480 vs 480 matchup.

the luxon side continues to cap, while the kurzick side goes on a rampage and kills a bunch of players. while the luxons have more shrines, the kurzick scored enough kills to make it 501 vs 495, and kurzick wins.

------

"you win by capping only" is a stupid misconception, and is only valuable to get bad players to do something constructive. AB, like GvG, now have two resources in equal balance: killing and capping. you can't win by capping alone (unless the other side completely forget to cap), and you can't win by killing alone either. this balance is pretty fragile at the moment, so there's no point in upsetting it.

You win the thread. You pretty much summaraize everything, and show that its balanced but yet the capping thing is overused. About 1/2 the times i go to an area for AB I see someone spamming "YOU NOOBS CAP FFS!!!"

Bobby2 · Mar 26, 2008, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Fighting/defending shrines definitely has its uses. However, people tend to get wound up fighting for too long: they don't realize when to quit (and split up) again.

Shadow Kurd · Mar 26, 2008, 09:47 PM // 21:47

When ever you kill someone in AB you get 1 point for the amount of shrines you have, so capping only will not win the battle

BTW: shouldn't this be in the The QQfire?

moriz · Mar 26, 2008, 09:58 PM // 21:58

that's actually incorrect. you gain 3 points per player kill, regardless of how many shrines you have.

Isil`Zha · Mar 27, 2008, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

When ever you kill someone in AB you get 1 point for the amount of shrines you have, so capping only will not win the battle

Actually, that's how I thought AB worked when it first came out, for the longest time too, until I cared enough to look it up. I actually think that that way would actually be the best way for it to function - and that would the the entirety of the scoring system for AB. In other words, no points every 7 seconds from held shrines --> all points are from kills, and the points per kill is based entirely on how many shrines you currently hold. Keep the 60 second victory for holding all shrines (the other team is going to be getting nil for each kill to the other team's *7* anyway.) I say keep it because you know that if it were gone, and one team got all 7 shrines, the other team could sit in their base and just wait for the other team to leave out of boredom.

I still do like the way it's setup now - I think it's fun tactically capping shrines to win. What I don't like about it, is the fact that a good 70% of the people that play AB... don't know how to play AB and think it's just a kill-fest. They ignore the shrines, and chase one insignificant opponent across the entire map just to get the kill. They'll constantly run into a giant enemy mob and just die repeatedly while the opposing team holds 6 shrines. ABs system isn't broken, the players are.

However, if its scoring system were such that your team got 1 point per player-kill per shrine you held, it would appease both types of players. The ones that ones that want to fight and just kill people for the most part, and those that like the tactical capping (like me) will be happy as well. It would also stop so many one-sided games because the other two teams you get stuck with don't bother even trying to capture any shrines - they're not even attempting to complete the objective. Thus, with some teams capping, then the ones doing the killing will be reaping the rewards of the teams capping. Of course, the capping teams will get kills too by taking out people defending shrines they go after.

EDIT:

I also wanted to clarify a few things. When I play AB with my friends (at least 2 others, I never go full PuG in AB anymore) we don't "just" tactically capture shrines. Tactically in that we don't just run in a circle capping shrines - we avoid large enemy mobs, or mobbing with our own team - if one of the parties of our team comes over and starts going to the same shrines as us, we turn and head towards another one. We do too of course know when to stop and defend a shrine or shrine(s) as well.

Sometimes we're just baffled at what the hell the rest of our team is doing - we'll be holding a shrine against 8 out of 12 of the opposing team, the only shrine our team has. Yet the other 8 of our team, not anywhere in radar range, are apparently doing nothing. I've sort of wished that something along the lines of the last 5 AB games are saved and observable like GvG games are... just so I can see what the hell they were doing...

moriz · Mar 27, 2008, 12:36 AM // 00:36

the +points per kill on how many shrines you have was how it was set up before. that got changed some time ago in favour of what we have now.

the old system often made comebacks impossible. having points per kill based on the number of shrines held often started huge snowball effects iwhere entire games were decided on who happened to win the first encounter.

Isil`Zha · Mar 27, 2008, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splitisoda

You win the thread. You pretty much summaraize everything, and show that its balanced but yet the capping thing is overused. About 1/2 the times i go to an area for AB I see someone spamming "YOU NOOBS CAP FFS!!!"

I've played hundreds of AB games - I've never seen a game lost due to excessive shrine capping. I've especially never seen a game totally bombed by a team due to excessive shrine capping.

I do, however, constantly see games that are totally bombed because the rest of the team doesn't cap anything because they treat it as nothing more than a kill-fest. After finally getting their shit together once the score is 200 to 350 after they just sat in a mob kill-fest and start capping again, then we lose the game because we don't cap fast enough.

Excessive "kill-festing" and mobbing are a major problem that result in horrible losses.

Excessive shrine capping never causes this problem.

Because of this, though, I've already expressed how I feel AB should be scored - which would better equalize the importance of shrine capping and killing in the sense that mobbing and killing once you have the shrine advantage will go much further to complete the objective.